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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 18, 2006 18:46:39 GMT -5
I'm looking to buy guns specifically for rentals this winter and I would like input from those of you who have already tried guns from my collection... I need to know what you liked most and would like to try again. I figure these are the top candidates for field deployment and run in roughly the same price range.... The more input the better so please post comments below. Icon Z1 .68 Carbine Alley Cat Spyder
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 18, 2006 18:50:46 GMT -5
In my mind the .68 is tried and true, the Z is the best bang for the buck, the Alley Cat is not to be underestimated, and the Spyder is demanded by popular demand....
I can't decide which would make the best rental.... Montneel actually sold a rental version of the Z, but would the former king find approval with a new generation of paintballers? Parts for Z's are becoming rare, but then I guess they all are these days. The only one still in the maistream is the Spyder and I'm so close to selling my last one!
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Post by big daddy on Oct 18, 2006 19:27:14 GMT -5
im not sure... i like them all, but my favorite was probably the spyder, though the Z is a close 2nd...
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Post by euclidean© on Oct 18, 2006 20:19:10 GMT -5
.68 carbine....for me anyways I've seen it chop far less balls than the spyder. if I had to rank them from best rental to worst rental:
.68 carbine Z AlleyCat Spyder
IMO.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 18, 2006 20:45:13 GMT -5
We'll see how high the z's on ebay go.... I think the .68 Carbine is the most likely, but thus far I think the Alley Cat has the highest rating by popular opinion.
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Post by AronMsmith1987 on Oct 20, 2006 7:29:10 GMT -5
I think that logically the alley cat is a better choice because it is easier to work on it has less moving parts then the .68 and over all it is a straight forward simple design and if your renting them out then isn't that what you would have in mind for a rental? If I were renting guns I would Keep it simple, because I could care less about looks and accuracy of a gun that someone else is using.
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Post by derf87 on Oct 20, 2006 8:07:11 GMT -5
I agree with aron, keep it simple. We also shuld get some pumps to rent for the people that prefer to play with them.
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Post by euclidean© on Oct 20, 2006 12:08:00 GMT -5
That mentality aron is why companies go under fast...."I don't care how it works, im not using it."...ya, harvey should care that the gun looks decent, has good accuracy, and works well. If he didn't, he wouldn't have very many returning renter's, because they would be like "It works like a piece of shit, Im not doing that again...". But at the same time, if I remember right, the AlleyCat did shoot pretty decently...but the .68 overall, worked better IMO.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 20, 2006 15:55:23 GMT -5
The .68 is a an all around great gun, it's fatal flaws are the ball detent and the elbow. These are still easy to come by but unfortunently they are proprietary, so they do pose a bit of liability as rentals. The Montneel used to be awesome, but there are many parts and they are increasingly rare. The Z was the first gun to successfully create backspin and remains the only gun to do it without some weird ass barrel. The Alley Cat has a more robust body, but eventually they do wear out and need to be rebuilt. I think most people including myself are leaning towards the Alley Cats, but I can't really say how accurate they are. I've managed impossible shots with my .68, but I haven't really played with the Alley Cat.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 20, 2006 17:46:29 GMT -5
I'm gonna try typing up a busniess plan tomorrow to figure out if this field is actually practical.... If it is then I guess we'll start buying.... lol
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Post by AronMsmith1987 on Oct 20, 2006 17:58:14 GMT -5
well lets see now if I was going to rent a gun to see if I liked paintball or not I can tell you that I wouldn't want to pay outrgeous prices for top dollar guns and if it was my first time the last thing I would be thinking about is the accuracy of the gun because in paintball accuracy is just as much if not more the skill of the shooter then the design of the gun, yes a nicer more expensive gun does beg to differ that duh it should be more accurte but like I said if it was my first time I don't think that it would matter. but on the other hand if I liked it that much then the next step would be obviously to go and buy my own equipment and therefore I wouldn't be a returning rentee anyhow. now my mentality was in no way the mentality ...."I don't care how it works, im not using it."... because I can tell you that I will use an Alley cat and I can bet I would give you a run for your money.. If you don't believe me ask Harv or Barber what I did to them with Holdens $50 Spyder in a matter of 20 seonds.. My mentality was one of a business owner thinking one about costs, and about effectivness. the AlleyCat is by far easier to repair maintain, clean, and assemble/use then the .68, due to the pure complexity of the .68s nature. so now that I have made my point shall we test my hypothesis? You take your best gun and give me an alleycat and I'll show you what accuracy V.s skill means in the sport of paintball..
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 20, 2006 20:38:10 GMT -5
I think you're both right, but the primary concern has to be a cheap gun that will shoot and keep shooting again and again whether someone dropped it in the mud or not. I believe that the alley cat and the .68 both meet this criteria and will hold up better than a spyder... So which gun is going to be easiest to fix and which is going to be most accurate? The matching of paint and barrel play a far greater roll in accuracy than the any component of the gun itself, but which gun shoots the cheap stuff best? If something breaks ICD aftermarket parts are much cheaper and more common than Tippmanns and they use a more standard machine process so it would also be easier to manufacture parts if the need ever arose, but then ICD is also a smaller company and stocks fewer parts. In order to finalize this I guess I need to see if that ICD Puma somebody beat to sh!t still holds air and shoots....
We also have the need aesthetic aspects.... If the ICD and Tippmann were sitting next to each other on a shelf which one would you pick up and admire? Most kids know Spyders and think Spyders are FREAKING AWESOME!!! Along with Ions which I don't exactly like either.... To me the .68 feels more like a guna nd I like that feeling, but the ICD looks more like a gun...
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Post by BARK BARK BARK BARK on Oct 22, 2006 1:07:33 GMT -5
I loved the alley cat when i used it, remeber i thought it was a $200+ gun at first? I even chose it over the automag. Then you told me they were really cheap and i was very impressed.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 23, 2006 22:29:52 GMT -5
So far in my ebay pillaging I've won 2 Z's.... No Alley Cats and Tippmanns that have been up recently look like crap. I'm thinking maybe 5Z's and 5-10 Alley Cats if any ever show up.....
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Post by AronMsmith1987 on Oct 25, 2006 9:56:18 GMT -5
well I have managed to dig up a couple of PUMAs and PMed them to you if you are interested I have also managed to find and f2 which form my POV is an exelent gun to own at a great price but have not found any alley cats....
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 25, 2006 12:16:51 GMT -5
Yes the F2 is a strong buy, but I don't think it would make such a good rental. I'll likely pick up another one anyway tho. Pumas are essentally Alley Cats but silver and older.... I'd rather have Alley Cats, but Pumas will do(I already have 2).
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Post by derf87 on Oct 26, 2006 23:57:47 GMT -5
What about using automags? From what aron said, the seem pretty simple and they are easy to get parts for.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 27, 2006 12:06:45 GMT -5
Mags don't work well with CO2, they tend to be more expensive, and stock mags usually shoot like crap... The Z-1 is essentially a better automag, although it has more moving parts, it's easier to diagnose and was designed specifically for CO2....
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 28, 2006 9:50:49 GMT -5
I've edited this so many times I don't know if it makes any sense anymore.... Ok I've been crunching some numbers and if this is going to be successful we need some serious SMG community support. If we do this how many of you guys will be paying $5 a weekend for paintball mayhem? I think the key is to start small with say 10-20 people we know... We need about a $5/day field fee or a one year pass for $35+. Who wants to buy the one year pass? Does anyone want to buy a stake in the company? There is no way we can make any speakable profit so we're probably gonna need some supplamental income.... lol It looks like most other fields raise their rates on weekends, whats your opinion on this? After thinking it over we should probably restrict the entire thing to weekends. One thing is for sure we need a website and we absolutely need a well advertised tournament or series of tournaments like scenario sundays.... We will continue to use Youngs Prairie, but we will be adding Fawn River and Tumble Dam to the field list. One of these fields will need to be selected as the focus of our efforts and actual improvements over the natural scenery will be made. We're looking at 15 weeks of operation, if we do weekends only it shouldn't interfere with other jobs... To cover my costs I need about 150 people or 10 per week renting guns. Don't quit your day jobs because the field is almost worthless and we'd have much higher margins just selling guns and paint online. Nevertheless I feel the field is crucial if this is going to work... So who is signing themselves up as labor? Me, Fred and Mansmith probably can't pull this off on our own.... We need a real paintball field (bunkers, walls and all) where people will be willing to pay money to paly at .... For gun rentals maybe something on the order of $2.50+field fees for pumps, $5+ff for semis, maybe $10 for electros if we get electros... So what do you guys think? Can this work? With these prices? I'd be happy if we just broke even. What are we gonna do about bathrooms? lol This is what I've got property wise in town.... Tumble dam offers the most trails and cover, the problem lies in restricting the field so the houses aren't in range. A fence is possible but we're talking about a lot of labor. Residential Zoning could be a problem. Hard to find for people not from Constantine.... No parking or open area to build a safe zone are available, talking about a huge project just to clear the land. Trains are often left to sit here for Oi.... Zoned light industrial. Fred where is your "field" at? The other option may be a campground.... We could charge more per person.... lol
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Post by BARK BARK BARK BARK on Oct 29, 2006 12:48:56 GMT -5
How do you expect to compete with splat? It makes no sense at all.
Also, constantine is a horrible place to open up a storefront! I would stick with the ebay thing, buy, fix, sell guns on there.
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Post by Hammer on Oct 29, 2006 17:34:15 GMT -5
Ya there is no way that i will go from pay 2 for a year to 35 sorry harv sounds like a good idea but there is no way you are going to compete with Splat.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 29, 2006 17:45:04 GMT -5
Yes after running the numbers a storefront is out, for now. We really have to start small and I wouldn't have to compete with splat, I would have to compete with Dunhams... So really I just needed to redefine my objectives, there is no market for paintball in Constantine, so instead I have to cater to the people associated with our group. We are the market... Pretty much I need a real Nitrogen fill station, more CO2, and more paint. The guns themselves are not very expensive, but for $5 a weekend from the 20+ people we know who play paintball is more than enough to support these investments. Thats why I'm buying more rentals and selling what I had. The last game of paintball I organized this summer had 26 people in attendance, that tells me that while the LANs may be unsustainable paintball is not. Besides if I fail I can always sell everything at cost.... Money isn't the primary goal here, getting people we know out in the woods is. I'm investing in 5 more semi's and 10 more pumps and that gives us enough for everyone after I sell off of the others.... We're looking at a margin of 10 rentals per gun over 15 weeks or 10 people renting per week.
Sticking with our group we can just charge $5 for gun rentals, $.15 per ounce of CO2, $1 per 1k psi of N2. Find a deal better than that.... If we want to do this it requires community (i.e. your) backing, thats what makes splat so successful. Nitrogen is our greatest cost and honestly I wouldn't mind dropping it all together, who wants HPA/N2? Really my main concern now is collecting all the decent guns on ebay selling for less than $50 and choosing a field we can focus our efforts at. So in that spirit where should we play?
If you think about it though $35 for a year of paintball really isn't out of this world, heck it cost less than one concert or a trip to Cedar Point. Besides if you help make the field you play on the field for free, I'm not evil... I just need help; this is also where the LAN fell apart if anyone cares to remember.... Heck if we all just buy paint and HPA/CO2 together we all save money in the end (i.e. don't buy sh!t from Dunhams and don't let your friends buy sh!t from Dunhams).... Of course by sh!t I mean paintballs or anything meant to alter or modify the stable, stationary nature of paintballs. (If any of Newton's Laws apply your ass is mine!)
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Post by Hammer on Oct 29, 2006 18:24:03 GMT -5
Well i will let ya know more after i get out of school in December. thats when i will know if i got a good job or if i am stuck with a shit job.
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Post by AronMsmith1987 on Oct 30, 2006 10:52:26 GMT -5
I am with you in this one. I'll help as much as I can and Will aso pay the $35 a year to play I mean seriously $35 thats less than a case of paint and you have to have a case of paint every time you play so look at the $ you are already spending. Typically if you pay retail prices for air and paint, it costs you from $.03 to $.05 just to pull the trigger once now seriously who is gonna tell me they can't afford a one year payment of $35?? thats like $.10 a day every day of the year to play paintball now who dosn't make $.10 a day, Seriously. I'm In.....
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Post by Hammer on Oct 30, 2006 12:38:12 GMT -5
i am in but i mean as far as the helping set up fields and stuff i cant help. i already am helping at splat ever sat starting the first week end in Feb. i mean if i get time off during the week no prob i will be there to help but other then that is highly unlikely that i can come and help or play.
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 30, 2006 17:05:22 GMT -5
I had 2 Z1's show up today, so shiny..... lol
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Post by euclidean© on Oct 30, 2006 20:41:58 GMT -5
Well i will let ya know more after i get out of school in December. thats when i will know if i got a good job or if i am stuck with a sh!t job. any job u get at all will be a lot better than what u had and, if you get a job, more than likely it'll be a mon-fri job...could be more, but let's say it is, and u only work 40hrs a week...that leaves you with say around 5p-10p of free time mon-thurs...and later on friday...u could easily help out. that's my idea anyways. O, and not saying that'll happen, cause who knows...u could get stuck with a 60 hr a week job and working saturdays....but who knows till u actually get one right? For me, i'll be there to help with the field here and there...don't think i'll be doing much on playing the weekends....I'll mroe than likely play at splat on sunday's...saturday's could be open....but for awhile i'll be helping sean on his house most weekends...that and we may start playing Dungeon's and Dragon's again....but that'll probably be on the weekdays...fun game lol....but anyways, paintball is going to happen this summer, and so is a LAN or two, at the least. I'll have more resources available, and so will a few others i know . Harvey, ur rental thing sounds good, im sure it'll work. Only thing is you'll just have to make sure you actually collect...cause i know u were a little soft on more than 1 occasion last summer haha. But ya, I'll help, and we'll get it done!
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Post by Kämpfer on Oct 30, 2006 20:57:56 GMT -5
Harvey, ur rental thing sounds good, im sure it'll work. Only thing is you'll just have to make sure you actually collect...cause i know u were a little soft on more than 1 occasion last summer haha. I need a person actually in collections, because that is definitely one of my problems.... Who want to be my loan shark? Start by breaking hartzel's fingers..... Actually I'll drop your debt if you want to sign up as my henchman.... lol It sounds like our paintball may be taking Friday or Saturday so those who want to can play at Splat. Sunday may in turn become our work day....
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Post by AronMsmith1987 on Oct 30, 2006 23:33:03 GMT -5
I'm great at collecting debts and not afraid to break any fingers. LOL but seriously I usually make sure money and dues are paid in full even i it means it comes out of my own pocket, but I get it al back in the end. And I don't think that any one has disagreed with me on that yet. Oh yeah and speaking of broken fingers, Derf where is the $50 you owe me?? JK LOL
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Post by derf87 on Oct 31, 2006 14:10:00 GMT -5
U will get it eventually. But in tearms of competing with splat, the 35 bucks isnt that bad. We just have to give people other environments than splat. All that splat has to offer, is woodsball and the city. We need to invest in an air ball field that would draw in those rich bastards with angels, protos, and overly priced electros, that is where the money lies thats what get aired on television. If we give people a different scene to play in we could make a ton of money. Also, splat doesn't rent any equiptment, if we also cater to the beginning player that doesn't have the money to go out and buy all of the stuff needed theres alot of business there. After they play allday for howerver much they want to spend most of them will probably be hooked and want to buy guns and supplies, thats where the storefront/bussines applies. If we do these type of thing i think we could make a killing.
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